Animal Owner Rights Discussion Page June 14, 2009

R. L. Smith : Hi Alan – sometimes it is really difficult to believe what the ARs are out to accomplish isn’t it …

Jim Mitchell : aight, I think I got this thing working

Alan Frost : Yes, RL, it is no wonder that people look at you like you had 2 heads when you tell them.

 SaveOurPets : I only learned about the AR’s last fall because of exotic bans

ESaunders : Welcome Jim!

R. L. Smith : Exactly! YOu wouldn’t believe the reactions I got 10 and 15 years ago!

ESaunders : SaveOurPets, can you share some of your experience with the exotics bans issue?

R. L. Smith : I’m so glad to see that people other than “just” dog and cat owners are getting involved in the crusade to save our animals

 bestuvall : Yeah.. I figured it out.. hello all.. and thanks ercica

SaveOurPets : I have found may to see it when you point out ALL of what they are d,pets

Jim Mitchell : <– Just a dog owner.

SaveOurPets : have not had any face to face YET

 ESaunders : Please remember everyone, that this is a publicly visible chat, like Twitter.

Jim Mitchell : Erica, will a log of this discussion be available on your website in the future?

ESaunders : Yes it will.

SaveOurPets : but we have many exotics and learned that with the new bills they may be attacked

SaveOurPets : then of course found out that the farming and pets were under attack as well

ESaunders : How does the attack on exotics differ from the attacks on pets or farms? Or does it differ?

SaveOurPets : the end result will be the same but the attacks are diff

SaveOurPets : the exotics start with vbans and the farm is regulate us to death

zotzer : Hi, it’s Tracy with the Briards. Sorry I’m late.

ESaunders : So, the less integrated the subject of regulation, the more likely to start with outright bans

SaveOurPets : that is how I see it yes

R. L. Smith : I believe the ARs will start with outright bans on anything that is “scarce” and little understood …

Alan Frost : Are the bans on exotics at the national level, that is, no entry to the US?

SaveOurPets : like pet breeders,they will be regulated to the death

SaveOurPets : they are fed and also local State,county etc

R. L. Smith : When you’re dealing with an unusual or little known animal, there are so few owners to band together and fight the regulations …

Alan Frost : What is the stated rationale behind the bans?

zoooom956 : Here in NC we are fighting everything equally hard, because end result is same AR agenda

ESaunders : Like the push for bans on ‘Internet Hunting’ (Which actually doesn’t exist)

SaveOurPets : the smaller the group the easier it is for them to win,yes

 zotzer : I think one of the best things to come out this year has been the different groups banding together

SaveOurPets : they use danger to humans and enviro

zoooom956 : yes zotzer…thats what we have been doing

Alan Frost : The small group idea is part of the 3 step program: marginalize, criminalize, demoralize.

zotzer : farmers, hunters, dog and cat fanciers, etc

R. L. Smith : zotzer you’re so right … we’re all learning that we need to come together and fight together …

smaller, less-known multi-group

Alan Frost : That way you don’t actually beat your opponent, he/she just gives up.

SaveOurPets : all to come together is very critical

R. L. Smith : Here in my state, we recently had dog and cat folks, plus Farm Bureau, Veterinary Medicine Assoc and even the NRA helping us ..

No2ar : we still have too much disharmony and lack of unity in groups here

SaveOurPets : the Large are using small groups

SaveOurPets : the same as with breeders.HSUS has taken in many SPCA’s

ESaunders : I can’t agree more on the need to come together. Although this discussion is primarily companion/pet based, I will be inviting the co-ordinater of the Twitter’s Agchat to the next one to look at the Agriculture perspective

zotzer : I think what has come out this week in LA has woken up some of the dissenting holier-than-thou folks though

R. L. Smith : AG is sooooo important … in most states which have an ag based economy, they have a great deal of power and influence …

No2ar : I hope so. Show dogs will not be saved at the expense of all others.

SaveOurPets : Our State is slow in coming together but slow is better than not

ESaunders : Zotzer, are you referring to the LA proposal to eliminate the MSN ‘exemptions for AKC and other registry dogs’?

R. L. Smith : It is very difficult for some “show dog folks” to realize the world doesn’t revolve around them … and I can say that because I’m “show dog folk!”

Jim Mitchell : There are huge numbers of very good people within the dog/cat animal community who still do not understand the actual mission, practices and and goals of the HSUS.

[some messages lost from chat interruption]

ESaunders : One thing I have found is that the commercial breeders are incredibly gun-shy of coming together with the animal community due to the rhetoric levelled against them.

SaveOurPets : I see large farms being the same way as large pet breeders

ESaunders : I have managbed to speak with a couple and the perspective has been enlightening

Diane Amble : The problem as I see it is that show folks believe that THEY will not be touched because they are “responsible law-abiding” folk. Right now, HSUS and others are hitting mostly fringe commercial breeders and until it really hits home, over and over (like the COlorado Setter case) they will not wake up. I think the real place to find allies is the regular pet owner. THEY will understand these draconian laws are not a part of freedom.

Jim Mitchell : I have no love for the large scale commercial breeders. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend and all that.

zotzer : Diane, that’s exactly why I think LA talking about tightening the leash on MSN is bringing some around

SaveOurPets : When their State gets hit like WA and Il and they want dogs taken out of house and put in kennels if you have 3 intact females they will wake up

Jim Mitchell : Strongly agree with your point about everyday owners, Diane.

ESaunders : Hobby breeders in CA are now being contacted regarding on sales tax since the IN ‘tax evasion’ dog seizure. Does this seem like a precedant to wake up the show/hobby community?

SaveOurPets : I do not believe in puppies being sold at pet store either

Diane Amble : Jim, when I hear this frompeople, I ask: Where will puppies come from? USA breeders or Roumanina? or from China? Mexico? There are issues with disease and true animal welfare concerns with imported commercial pups. I for oine, believe that commercial breeders have a right to breed and sell and this is part of free enterprise −-− an American way of life and a freedom. Some of their facilites are very state of the art I hear.

ESaunders : Let’s not get caught in the personal philosophy vs rights trap

SaveOurPets : what is lagre? 50,100,200 ?

SaveOurPets : I should say that is JMO I dont bad mouth or make them the bad guys

Diane Amble : That question of an arbitrary number is how HSUS is working their bills across the nation, some are starting with 20 others like CA with 50, and they have stated publically at their legislative seminars they intend to lower them year after year… best not to let these become law.

ESaunders : The personal philosphy vs property rights trap is where the companion animal community gets trapped, historically speaking

SaveOurPets : agree like family farm vs large farm

ESaunders : Exactly

 Diane Amble : EXACTLY

SaveOurPets : they are out to kill it all no mater the size

 ESaunders : So. Perspectives on the new angle of attack using ‘tax evasion’

Diane Amble : I think that the assault on the farming community is worse than the assault on the pet community as they mean to regulate and thereby, take food out of our mouth and our children, as well as our pets.I have often said that they have to eliminate pet food in order to eliminate people food.

SaveOurPets : also with zoning laws

zotzer : Erica, it’s a scary one. So much is troubling about Il (IN?) seizure, it’s hard to know where to begin

Diane Amble : First of all, it has to be challenged. Just because the tax man cometh, doesn’t mean you payeth or oweth

Diane Amble : Zoning laws should be challenged as well as they are actuALLY ILLEGAL

ESaunders : How do we go about raising this issue in the media?

zotzer : It’s like marshall law and they are making it up as they go. Any word at all from the “victims”?

Diane Amble : We must have a PROFESSIONAL publicist. THAT is critical

SaveOurPets : HSUS has worked with the law makers in our area the last couple yrs and had so many amendments put in that no one can be 100 %n legal with every thing

zotzer : The problem, as I see it, is the one badly matted dog I saw in the pics. You can’t have a single dog looking like that, no matter how pristine the operation

Diane Amble : Some vistims are being helped by the commercial breeder association. We are far behind what they have instituted since they have been under the gun for a long time and stand on their right to free enterpise, etc

 Diane Amble : Once ANY law is put into place, then begoins the judicial challenge as each case works its way thru the system, but that takes money, and as in Southern California, especially, the LA area, the judicial system is CORRUPT and the County Supervisors bascially OWN the Judges!

zotzer : It almost needs to make it to the SCOTUS

SaveOurPets : I think the judicial system is corrupt in many places

Diane Amble : Our system of democracy only works when there is no corruption. Right now, HSUS is corrupting our legislatures and our Attorney Generals.

zotzer : Look at what is happening in NY state right now. It does make one a bit hopeless

SaveOurPets : it about money

ESaunders : Diane, can we focus on that point for a momment

Diane Amble : SCOTUS seems corrupt now as well from what I have seen. The problem is similar to our legislature: HSUS has gotten their activists into place as staffers!

[remaining messages lost due to chat interruption]